Building Teachers' Historical Knowledge | History Matters Podcast

What do teachers need to successfully teach high-quality history lessons in elementary school?

A strong curriculum is a great start, but teachers also need aligned professional learning and time to dig in and build the content knowledge that supports confident instruction, says guest Courtney Dumas. In this episode, she explains how her organization, Edu20/20, is supporting Louisiana educators as they implement the state’s content-rich Bayou Bridges elementary social studies curriculum.

Effective professional learning for social studies instruction is rooted in curriculum, but it doesn’t just cover how the curriculum works, she says. Dumas and Edu20/20 discuss specific content in detail and then lead model lessons where teachers pretend to be fifth graders, which allows them to experience the curriculum as their students will.

“Professional learning in social studies is different because the No. 1 thing is the content,” she says. “In Ouachita, we talked about their grade level, their specific content, their specific units, their specific assessments. And then we had them experience a lesson as a student. And that was kind of where the magic happens.”

Dumas also stresses the importance of giving teachers time to study history content together. Many elementary teachers are generalists, so building historical content knowledge is an important aspect of effective professional learning in social studies, she notes.

“We set lots of high expectations for curriculum, but sometimes we don’t give teachers the time and space to meet those expectations,” she says. “You’d be surprised how many people don’t know basic history. . . It is so important that we give teachers the time and space to interact with that content.”

Dumas sees a bright future for elementary history instruction, because “people are understanding the importance of it and how it complements literacy,” she says. 

“We think that by giving more time to ELA, that’s going to be the answer. But really, social studies is ELA,” she says. “It’s going to make them better writers, better readers, better citizens. That’s what we want.”

This podcast is produced by the Knowledge Matters Campaign and StandardsWork, on behalf of the History Matters Campaign. Follow the History Matters Campaign on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter/X. Search #historymatters to join the conversation.

Production by Tressa Versteeg. Original music and sound engineering by Aidan Shea.

Transcript

Courtney Dumas

Just knowing the overall structure of that curriculum and keeping it the same year after year, it's so powerful. It's just more coherent. 

Barbara Davidson 

Welcome to the History Matters podcast. I'm your host, Barbara Davidson, President of Standards Work and Executive Director of the Knowledge Matters campaign. 

In this episode, I talk with Courtney Dumas, CEO of Edu20/20, a professional learning organization that supports teachers throughout Louisiana in implementing the state's new high quality social studies curriculum. 

As a former elementary school teacher, Courtney has an informed perspective on the kinds of learning experiences teachers need and that they found most helpful as they begin to use the new curriculum in their classrooms. It's a great discussion. Please enjoy.

Barbara Davidson

I have a question that I've started off each of these interviews with. And that is: How did you get so fevered history education? Like, What's your story?

Courtney Dumas 

I'm a nerd, first and foremost, but when I ー I think the biggest, you know, thing that fuels my fire was when I taught in third and fourth grade. It was back ー I'm aging myself now ー it was back when they pulled students out that were struggling readers during the social studies block. And that was just ー it was very difficult ー because I was self-contained at the time. And so when I wanted to refer back to something we talked about in social studies, half of the class was pulled out and missed it. And that was the best stuff! 

And so now I get the chance to show teachers and educators all over the state, the importance of making sure students have that instruction, that historical instruction, and actually realize that it is an extension of the ELA block. They don't have to be pulled out for that. In fact, that's like their favorite part of the day. 

Barbara Davidson

Wow.

Courtney Dumas

So that just really, that fuels me to make sure ー and I've seen it happen time and again. We think that by giving more time to ELA, that that's gonna be the answer, but really, social studies instruction is ELA.

Barbara Davidson

Tell me a little bit, if you will ー let's sort of set the stage by, what's Edu20/20's sort of theory about professional development? What do you think the teachers ー that resonated so much with the experience that they had, that we witnessed in Ouachita Parish ー what were they responding to?

Courtney Dumas 

Well, at Edu20/20 we believe in simplicity. I think we overcomplicate a lot in education.  We make sure we keep things simple. What do teachers need to know to be successful with this content and this curriculum? So we make sure that they have dedicated time and space to learn and dig into the materials before they ever bring it in front of students. 

But I think in Ouachita Parish, the biggest difference maker is that we didn't just train them on curriculum. We didn't talk around curriculum. We showed them what it could look and sound like in action. And it is so critical that when you are leading professional development, that it is in their content, in their curriculum. Otherwise you have a very, very low rate of transfer into the classroom. 

And then we give them very easy systems to effectively and efficiently plan. Because if you don't have systems to effectively and efficiently plan, the first thing to go out the window is going to be the time spent in that content. You know, Barbara, if you don't feel comfortable with content, that's one ー that’s the thing you're going to skip or you're going to expedite because you didn't have time to sit in it and understand it. 

The kids know when you were into a topic and when you feel good about a topic or you feel confident in a topic. They also know when you don't like a con ー the content so much. So just giving teachers that time and space to dig into their content and curriculum and see what it looks like in action. 

Barbara Davidson 

So I want to make sure to put a real ー like to get really specific here about the distinction that I'm hearing you begin to talk about and what I think most people are familiar with, which is what we call sort of launch PD. But how is what you're talking about here, Courtney, different from sort of typical launch PD of a new curricula?

Courtney Dumas 

Typical launch PD for any curriculum is a: click here, click here. This is the layout. This is the assessment approach. When we bring teachers in, especially when we worked with them in Ouachita, we talked about their grade level, their specific content, their specific units, their specific assessments. 

And then we had them experience a lesson as a student. And that was kind of where the magic happens. Because so often we think about: What are we doing as teachers? We don't feel what it's like to be in the classroom as a student. So we let them experience the lesson that's in their content, in their curriculum, in their grade level. And that's where we had a lot of ah-hahs. That's every teacher's favorite thing when we go in and do professional development. It's the model lesson, every time.

Barbara Davidson

Tell us a little bit more about that because that is absolutely an experience that I've had throughout the 50 school tour visits that we've been on as part of the Knowledge Matters Campaign. So why do you think that ー I mean, it’s ー to an outsider, it maybe feels a little hokey, right? But yet the feedback is so positive.

Courtney Dumas 

I think it's so positive because again, whenever we implement a new curriculum, people talk around it. Teachers just want to know: That's great. How do I use it? What does it look and sound like in action? And so when we do it at first, people are kind of hesitant. They’re like: You're really going to treat me like a fifth grader? And we're just like, stick with us. And then sometimes we get really wild um and we’ll, we'll do the lesson experience one way and then we do the lesson experience another way with the literacy moves and it blows their minds. 

Barbara Davidson

Oh my.

Courtney Dumas

And so, although it seems a little cheesy at first glance, once they get in it, they're like: My gosh, it was so much more meaningful when I became the student. And then we let them see our annotations so they understand the thought process that we went through to plan that lesson.

Barbara Davidson 

Well, what would you say is some of the most high impact PL work?

Courtney Dumas

I mean, it's always gonna be, if we have a chance to sit with specific grade levels and talk about their content ー let them just read the materials, understand, ask questions, answer the questions themselves. That is, that is the most impactful. 

And then understanding, showing them how the students can interact with the history. And so just letting them see what that could look and sound like in action, it unlocks something and they just get really excited about it. 

I've done training. I've done training with multiple grade levels and like that can be effective. But when we give them time and space ー we set lots of high expectations ー  

Barbara Davidson

In their own grade level, yeah ー

Courtney Dumas

Yes, we set lots of high expectations for curriculum, but sometimes we don't give teachers the time and space to meet those expectations. And so by using their time in professional learning to actually plan and read the materials, it's valuable to them. 

They are used to ー in the past,  there was ー I always use the term PD trauma. You never knew what you were going to PD for. It was different every week. You didn't know what was coming. 

Barbara Davidson

Oh. Yeah.

Courtney Dumas 

When they walk in and they see us, a lot of them are like: Oh my gosh, thank God it's y'all. We know we're going to be actually getting something done. Something is going to be taken off of our plate after they go to our trainings. Because we let them plan there ー with their materials. 

Barbara Davidson 

Great. Oh, I can only imagine what a relief that is to them.

So I'm kind of a Johnny One Note on the cause for core, you know, comprehensive curriculum. And I can't see how doing this ー that you've just described and having the impact that it's had on, on teachers that we saw and that has been reported ー is possible without, let's just say it, a curriculum, you know a shared curriculum. And what does ー what does shared curriculum make possible for the professional learning journey that wouldn't be possible without it?

Courtney Dumas

I think there's a twofold kind of piece to this. So there's the shared curriculum perspective of the student. Sometimes there's just a comfort level. When you walk into a classroom and the materials look the same as what you just learned, the structure is the same. 

Barbara Davidson 

Right.

Courtney Dumas 

Kids thrive on that structure. So I think it's a benefit to the kids. But it also is a benefit for us as professional development leaders, we know the ins and outs of the curriculum. 

And then as a teacher, let's say there's a lot of teachers that do loop up or do change grade levels. Just knowing the overall structure of that curriculum and keeping it the same year after year, it's so powerful. It's just more coherent. 

When it comes to high quality instructional materials, sometimes that is a missing piece that teachers don't put together on their own. They don't see that coherence. And so when you have the same curriculum ー let's say grades 3 through 10 ー it helps them to better understand how those materials work together to continuously build that knowledge for students. And then structure doesn't get in the way, right. They get to focus on the content.

Barbara Davidson 

Do you think professional learning and social studies, history is different from other disciplines? Talk a little bit about what has been maybe revealing to you or harder ー and maybe it's not?

Courtney Dumas 

I do think it's different. Professional learning is different in social studies, in some ways, because the number one thing is the content. You'd be very surprised how many people don't know basic history. And I don't know what the cause of that was. I don't know if it was, they didn't have as much social studies instruction. But it is so important that we give teachers the time and space to interact with that content and to experience the skills. 

So, professional learning is different in the knowledge building and the content side, but I think it stays the same for the skill side. We have to continuously work on the teacher's skill of implementing, you know, just best practices. But when it comes to social studies, you have to give them time to dig into that content and get to know it in and out because you can't lead kids ー I always tell the analogy if you've never been to Paris ー like let's say there was somebody who's never been to Paris, would you want them to give them to give you a tour of Paris? Absolutely not. 

So if we wanna take kids somewhere, we gotta go there first. And that is critical when you are planning for social studies, because you've got to experience and understand it before you can take kids there.

Barbara Davidson

Do you think, Courtney, that the teachers in Louisiana have a little bit of a leg up in this PL journey as it relates to social studies and history instruction because of the work that they've done, in many cases implementing the state's Louisiana Guidebooks curriculum or other knowledge rich curricula that they ー that's kind of become an ethic throughout the state?

Courtney Dumas 

Absolutely. The kids are able to make so many more connections. And I do think because Louisiana implements the knowledge building curricula in both ELA and social studies, the kids, liter ー like, they'll bring up something in, let's say Guidebooks, Louisiana Purchase. When they hit it again in social studies, it's like: [gasp] We already learned about this! So they're revisiting that knowledge and they're just building and going deeper. 

I have currently a third grader and a seventh grader. And they are learning about the same exact thing ー obviously, the seventh graders is getting a little bit more information. But because they're using Bayou Bridges, they're able to have the same conversations about George Washington and the rules or the precedents that he set. It's really cool to just see how that builds across time.

Barbara Davidson

Oh my goodness. And I can imagine how empowered your second grader feels in being able to communicate about an academic topic with your seventh grader.

Courtney Dumas

So my second ー well my ー he’s third grade now ー he struggled with reading. And had he been one of those kids that were pulled out of the classroom to get extra ELA instruction, this whole experience would not have happened. 

It was at Easter. And they did an Easter egg hunt. And he had a lot of candy and his sister had a lot of candy and they were trading it out. And he said, “Hmm. I see that your supply is low, so your demand is high. So it's going to cost you two of those Swedish fish.” And I was like: What just happened? 

But it was because his teacher made social studies exciting. And now he understands these deep concepts about economics and applied them to his Easter egg hunt candy. That's what we want to see!

And he thrived in social studies. And thank goodness that his teacher saw the importance of social studies in the classroom because he did improve his literacy scores because she spent the time in social studies and in that knowledge building piece with literacy. He flourished in that classroom.

Barbara Davidson 

Wow. Another question I have for you. Do you have advice for teachers that are working in districts that aren't as lucky as the teachers in Louisiana are, that don't have a comprehensive history or social studies curriculum?

Courtney Dumas

My advice to people who don't have a knowledge building, a history rich curriculum is to ask a lot of questions. I would ask whoever was in charge: Hey, where can we find something that our kids can use to build their knowledge about their own story and the world? 

There are tons of great open source curricula out there that you can just Google, but of course I would want them to be standards aligned. But I say, always ask questions. If you ask the right questions, you get people to make the right actions. That would be my best piece of advice. Apply some pressure. 

Barbara Davidson 

Well, that's ー I love that answer, Courtney. Let me just say, I thought you were going to like give ideas about how they could cobble something together. 

Courtney Dumas

Nope.

Barbara Davidson

But you're saying: Hmm, don't accept it. Push.

Courtney Dumas

Absolutely. That's what we want our kids to do. We shouldn't just accept things as they are just because they are. Let's keep pushing. Let's make it better. Let's make something better for kids.

Barbara Davidson 

The last question I'm going to ask you is one I've been asking everyone. What gives you hope for the history of ー social studies instruction, history instruction in particular, and in particular at the elementary grades?

Courtney Dumas

Something that gives me hope about the future of elementary history instruction is the fact that people are understanding the importance of it and how it complements literacy. And they're making time for teachers to dig into it. 

In the past, your collaborative planning was usually around ELA or math. Now they're making time for teachers to dig into this content. And that's so important. I think that people are waking up and seeing that the historical piece, the knowledge building piece, compliments the literacy piece. It's the same thing. It's just going to give kids their ー it's going to make them better writers, better readers, and better citizens. That's what we want.

Barbara Davidson

To learn more about Courtney's work, you can visit her organization's website, edutwentytwenty.com, which is linked in our show notes. 

This podcast is produced by the Knowledge Matters Campaign. You can learn more about our work at knowledgematterscampaign.org. 

To catch all of the History Matters podcast, make sure you subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.